Geek Social Fallacies and the Dyke March

[pantryslut]

I've been thinking about the inclusion/exclusion issues of the Dyke March lately, thanks to final_girl and others, and, relatedly, to seperatism issues in general. Some people I know who are bio-boys and good queer activisty men feel excluded and hurt by the Dyke March (and other seperatist space) policies. Since I like them, I am somewhat sympathetic to their feelings. But I've been uneasy with the politics.

I think I've been able to pinpoint why, at least for myself, with the help of the Geek Social Fallacies page. [note: as of this very moment, the page seems to be down, but the URL is correct. Try this link in the meantime. Thanks, brooksmoses.]

First of all, I think everyone, whether they march in the Dyke March or not (or want to but can't), or think they're a geek or not, should visit this page. It's chock-full of useful information to think about when disentangling social dynamics.

The part that went 'click' in my head to me, though, is the notion that not being invited to an event is tantamount to exclusion.

Makes sense on the surface, doesn't it? If you're not in, you're out. If you're not welcome, you're not wanted.

The Geek Social Fallacies page, however, points out the problems with this notion. My favorite, because it's so recognizable from my own experience, is the 20-person no-reservation restaurant crawl. Been there, done that, yuck.

I know that some of you will argue that the Dyke March is different. People can make whatever decisions they want about private events, but the march is public. It takes up public space. It should be open.

I'm afraid I just can't buy that any more. The Dyke March, as Daphne I think mentioned first, was started as a way to protest our invisibility in the greater scheme of Pride. That purpose is diluted when men (bio or otherwise) march with us. It's not when they cheer on the sidelines. It's a purpose that I, personally, want to preserve a piece of. That I am protective of.

There are spaces, public and private, that I would like to attend that I am excluded from. Under-30 play parties. 15 Association meetings (kinky gay men, for those who don't know). People of color gatherings. Sometimes I am sad and hurt that I cannot attend. But I deal, because I understand that, despite all the nitty-gritty problems with defining a boundary in the first place, sometimes those boundaries are needed anyway. And sometimes I need to be on the outside of those boundaries in order for something I love to flourish.

This does not mean that the politics of the Dyke March (or the MWMF, or any other space) are beyond interrogation. This does not mean that you can't prefer an inclusive event like the Tranny March. This does not mean that your hurt feelings (or mine) are invalid.

But it does mean that I support the Dyke March's policy as is.

That's all.

Comments

[gordonzola.livejournal.com]

I have no sympathy for bio men who feel excluded. Part of dealing with gender privilige is not putting yourself in the center of every situation. What is wrong with being a supportive non-particiapnt? Sheesh.

I mean, I will say that it always hurts to feel not invited to a social event. And let's admit that the Dyke March means different things for different people and for many it is mostly a social event. But it's one day a year. Perspective is an important thing.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

How shall I put this? I am understanding of the feelings (particularly when I put the GSF lens up to my eye), but I am not sympathetic to that meaning anything other than that those feelings exist.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Also, it's not even one day a year, because as far as I know, men aren't excluded from hanging out beforehand in Dolores Park, or afterwards wherever.

[badger2305.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. I'm perfectly comfortable with the Dyke March (or any Dyke march) being a space for women, and not men. Characteristic-specific spaces (in this case, gender-specific) are not necessarily wrong to be exclusionary. When they are created by groups who have experienced discrimination, they help build solidarity. And I like your note about continuing to interrogate the politics around this.

[brooksmoses]

In the interim, one can get to the Geek Social Fallacies page via the Wayback Machine, here.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[odelenu.livejournal.com]

I am not a separatist and nor have I ever been. The dyke march however is one day when I want to have the option of marching with dykes and raising dyke visibility. If it happens to also be a huge social event then that is even better.
Thanks for posting this.

[felicks.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I have a lot of simular feelings to this, but you articulated it better.

[kneidlach.livejournal.com]

To add to this (hi nadinelet, hope you don't mind me commenting in your journal) I think it's actually really fucked up to create a distinction between "bio-guys" and "non-bio-guys" (i.e. trans guys). If you're a guy, you are not a dyke, and shouldnt' be marching at the dyke march. Period. I don't give a fuck what's in your pants or what used to be in your pants.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

It's totally cool to come and comment in my journal.

[nadyalec.livejournal.com]

I agree. That's why I don't march in it.

Sometimes my presence at an event would harm it. I want the event to exist, so I don't go.

[rgay.livejournal.com]

This was nicely articulated. I agree with much of you said as it is something I run into when it comes to exclusively people of color spaces or moments and how to negotiate those when BoyToy is white and would like to come along (as a recent example). It is a fine line, I think because group-specific spaces are necessary but it is important to acknowledge our allies. Anyway, this was great to read.

[debbieann.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. Most of the people I know understand and agree with the politics of the dyke march. And I feel included, even though in some ways I could be excluded, but they have always been open to people who want to identify as dykes. I haven't really spoken to anyone who said they felt hurt and excluded by it. Are there any posts/links to that? Or can you say any more about it?

[gordonzola.livejournal.com]

the only reason I made the distinction was to not over-reach. I was just speaking for my people. ;) I can imagine the issues might be slightly different for men who grew up identifying as dykes or were active in the dyke community and didn't want to speak for them.

[gordonzola.livejournal.com]

yes, you're right. specificity is good.

[kneidlach.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that makes sense :)

[tgeller.livejournal.com]

I disagree, but you knew that already.

[charliegrrrl.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting this -- it was really articulate and encapsulated a lot of stuff. (And I hate those 20 people, no reservation dinner crawl thingies. You always end up at Chevys!) I personally have no problem with the dyke march's policies as-is.

[fightingwords.livejournal.com]

yeah, what you said. of course, i've recently been having these issues with explaining to white people why POC space is necessary. so, i think i'm feeling a bit more sensitive.

and of course, aside from the symbolism of only woman-identified women marching in the dyke march, there's the other stuff that's sure to creep in (namely, the "i belong EVERYWHERE" version of sexism), which i don't think is something that only bio-men by into. this is how coopting happens, after all. and of course, straight women (bringing with them their heterosexual entitlement) are already very well represented.

frankly, part of my favorite part of this year's march was my friend daryl, one of my oldest and bestest friend, a bio-man, happily stalking me and my friends during the march from the park to the castro--always on the sidewalk. to me, that's support.

Men belong in the Dykehag march.

[bucky-sinister.livejournal.com]

If they really feel excluded, and want to show support, they should march together somewhere else. Have a Give Back The Night thing or something. Should I be saying "we" instead of "they?" I want to say they since I have never felt excluded by not being able to take part in a women only or dyke only event. Actually, I have always been surprised by the inclusion I've been given over the years, the amount of room I get.

Re: Men belong in the Dykehag march.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

I adore the idea of a "Give Back The Night March." Oh yes I do.

Yeah, for those of us with a weird sense of humor

[bucky-sinister.livejournal.com]

it's hilarious. In a public forum, I think a lot of people wouldn't get it, and may think we're trivializing the Take Back...March. Otherwise, it'd be fun.

chants like:
"Here! Sorry we hogged it!"

ending with a ceremonial Giving Back of the Night by Gavin Newsom.

[manomano.livejournal.com]

I have to agree, men in the Dyke March are just wrong. I noticed on Saturday that a lot of them seemed to be marching with women, though some were marching on their own. I'd say that women who invite men to march with them are also just wrong.

I CAN sympathize with the feelings of the men marching. I remember a time just after I came out where I didn't feel like I fit anywhere. All my queer friends were Dykes, and it felt like events like the Dyke March were excluding me from marching with my friends. But I also knew (and know) that there are so many spaces my man body/man appearance get me into, and that if Dykes want Dyke only or women only space I'm happy to cheer them from the sidelines.

This isn't the old "Men can't be feminists" debate, it's the "just for 2 hours, we are taking space for ourselves".