pantryslut

I went to that link and couldn't see anything about Octavia Butler so I'm not certain what you're referring to, but from the context of the one paragraph you wrote, it seems to me that Octavia Butler would qualify as queer from her presentation and her treatment of sexual ambiguity. Queer on a cis-trans basis if not on the hetero-homo basis.

What did I miss? What does the link say?

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The context:

"Buy a $40 or higher ticket to the Spectacle and get 2 drink tickets for our specialty Queer Writer Libations!
Drink Menu includes-
a James Baldwin (smooth & classy)
a David Wojnarowicz (rough and full of vodka)
a Octavia Butler (from another planet)
a Sor Juana (non-alcoholic, she was a nun!)"

I think I would argue that while Butler's writing may have been queer (for some definition of), that does not make her a Queer Writer [sic].

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kalmn.livejournal.com

yeah. there's a real big difference between "queer writer" and "writer who wrote stuff that resonates with me and i'm queer".

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alibi-shop.livejournal.com

OK, the "from another planet" part makes a little more sense to me now, just because she was the only SF writer on the list - it's like, if she had written comic books, they would've said "(bang, zoom!)". Still, all those descriptions are pretty dumb. Nuns can't drink? Ha ha ha.

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Yes, nuns never ever ever had anything to do with alcohol (http://www.beeratjoes.com/?p=158)!

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Ah, gotit. As you say, while her writing might have been queer, queers may identify with her, and she might be a hero to queers, that doesn't make her a Queer Writer.

Thanks.

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Yes, exactly.

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Queer on a cis-trans basis? From her presentation? As in, she doesn't appear to be a cisgendered woman? Are you aware of how problematic that is in a racial context (e.g., black women being historically treated as "not real women" or "not feminine" because of the lack of long flowing hair, slight build, and other markers of femininity normed on white women; plus also justifying the rape and mistreatment of black women despite chivalry because black women "aren't women"; and so on)?

Again per my comment below, if Butler claimed a queer identity for herself, I'm all for celebrating it. But I don't think she did. And it's deeply, deeply wrong to apply that to her based (of all the damn things) on her outward presentation.

Please clarify, if that isn't what you meant.

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I have no idea if Octavia Butler self identified as queer, I was asking Lori for clarification about what she was referring to since it wasn't clear to me from the link she posted. Octavia Butler obviously didn't adhere to societal expectation of feminine gender presentation, which I personally think is fabulous but I have no delusion that she was doing it for me.

Your subsequent comments about gender presentation and "real women" are interesting, but are certainly nothing I said, intended, or believe.

If you care, I read your comments as somewhat hostile and accusatory, and I found myself bristling and struggling to reply in a way that wasn't angry and hostile myself, I hope I've succeeded. Would you be willing to adopt a friendlier tone?

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Charles, this is the tone argument (http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument) in a nutshell, and I'm going to myself politely flag it as such.

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Sorry, I can see how it might have come across that way, but that wasn't actually what I was trying to say.

I'm not saying "if you changed your tone your argument would be more effective" I'm saying "I felt personally attacked." It was not about the truth of the argument or the effectiveness of the argument, but about how I personally responded to a message to me as an individual and a request that when addressing me personally to do it in a different way. (And "no, this is how I talk" is certainly one possible answer.)

As I understand it, the tone argument is about a person's argument style or tone in general and I also find it obnoxious. I refer to myself as a "strident feminist" precisely in response to tone arguments.

So let me try to rephrase it. "I would like to have a conversation with you about this, not an argument. I think we are actually on the same side, and agree, but your remarks left me feeling personally attacked. Would you mind changing the tone of your conversation with me?"

Is that still/also a tone argument?

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If it were me, I would drop the last sentence of the rephrasing. Then it is not a tone argument to my ears. This may be a personal thing, but (in this context: online, people unknown to each other talking publicly, one party belonging to a demographic that is often dismissed as too angry to reason with) the request to change the tone I think is inherently problematic.

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Ok! Thanks. That makes sense. I'm used to always including a call to action when I "complain" about something but I can see how that might be a problem.

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No.

As

pantryslut noted below, this is an intersectionality issue, and one that black women -- cis or trans -- get in spades, because none of us "obviously" adhere to societal expectaions of feminine gender presentation. We all get assumed queer because of the way we look, unless we go to extreme lengths to alter our natural appearance (e.g. straightened hair), exaggerate our cissexual behavior, etc. Some of us get kind of pissy about that assumption, because it happens too often, and it comes from both obnoxious straight cisgendered white people and from well-intentioned queer white people who mean it as a compliment -- a la the ad mentioned in the OP, and you in the comment here.

Obviously you didn't mean to touch on that history, but you did, which is why I pointed it out. And obviously you didn't realize it was annoying (despite

pantryslut noting her own annoyance with same), but it is, which is why I sound hostile. Telling me to watch my tone really doesn't help matters.

And as this isn't my blog and I doubt Lori wants a fight here, I'll stop here and get back to writing.

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Thanks - that does make it clearer, and I appreciate your taking the time to explain it. I can see how my initial remarks could well have touched a nerve.

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Er, did Octavia ever claim a queer identity? Was she public about any aspect of her sexuality? Granted, her writing is very supportive of/deals well with queer issues, but I can't help but think that this seems seriously disrespectful of a woman I'm told was extremely shy and private. By all means publicize it if she did, but if she didn't... don't.

This is the second time I've seen white readers imposing a queer identity on Octavia. The first was a critical review of my book, which was (AFAICT) very angry with me because one of my "omnisexual" characters wasn't more obviously so, and then declared that I was no Octavia Butler on queer issues. Leaving aside the fact that there's no logical reason to compare me to Octavia Butler anyway... ::siiiiiigh::

I hadn't realized the "OB is a queer writer" meme was so widespread, though.

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No, she never did as far as I know. And I don't think it was a case of closetedness, either. I think, as I kind of implied above, that it's a misreading of her nonconformance to certain expectations of heterosexual femininity. Never mind that such expectations are complicated by a lot of factors...

(But I am admittedly biased by the fact that my most major interaction with her was around a point of heterosexual dating psychology of which I was, um, a bit naive.)

I was first aware of Butler being claimed as queer when she died, in scattered obituaries that, er, startled me. There was a also brief kerfuffle at Wikipedia. The discussion page is instructive.

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Wow. Clear evidence of my privilege; I never knew it was even an issue, and it wouldn't have occurred to me to wonder.

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