(no subject)

[pantryslut]

Post-Femme Con thought for the day:

"However, the success of early female punk performers' attempts to desexualize the clothes they wore in such a parodic fashion is debatable. Whereas punk women intended to present these garments in such a way as to discredit their effect as fetishistic, sexually titillating items, the overriding cultural view of women as sex objects may have worked at cross-purposes with their intent. Thus, Laing argues that "an attempt to parody 'sexiness' may simply miss its mark and be read by the omnivorous male gaze as the 'real thing'." Their attempt at resistance, when contained within the subculture's private code, could be, and was, often read by the mainstream press and by observers more in terms of its accomodation, rather than resistance, to feminine sexual stereotypes. While striving to counter stereotypes of women in rock, punk women were repeatedly described as sluts, perverts, whores, and junkies by those outside the subculture."

-- Lauraine Leblanc, Pretty in Punk

Comments

[twostepsfwd.livejournal.com]

This encapsulates many of my thoughts about the whole in-vogue attitude about slutty clothes, sex work, etc being seen as liberating or feminist simply because they're being done by people with some kind of feminist analysis.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

I'm having a hard time answering this comment, just because it lumps so many things together and then dismisses them as trendy and misguided. I'm not even sure where to start except to say that while I can see how the quote could be taken in support of such a stance, I think it's saying something much more complicated and important. See my answer to justin42 for more of my angle on it.

[twostepsfwd.livejournal.com]

I'm not trying to imply that the quote you posted represents all your feelings on all of the ins and outs of this stuff. Simply expressing my reaction, which is that it reminds me of my feelings on much of femme culture that I see these days.

[mr-heathen.livejournal.com]

but it IS liberating and it IS feminist, whether i want it to be or not, just by virtue of me having a vagina and wearing clothes, no matter what those clothes are or how slutty you perceive them to be.

[twostepsfwd.livejournal.com]

Do you mean EVERYTHING is liberating and feminist just because you have a vagina?

(And don't think I'm knocking slutty clothes ;-P )

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

I guess in the end my take is this: if they're going to perceive you as a slut no matter what you wear, say, or do, then you might as well wear, say, and do whatever the fuck you like. Emphasis on like.

[postmaudlin.livejournal.com]

So you're saying there is no way sex work can be analysed as liberating or feminist by qualified academics?

[twostepsfwd.livejournal.com]

no i never said that, at all. not even close. but i've also backed out of this conversation.

[justin42.livejournal.com]

The omnivorous male gaze has a way of sexualizing and objectifying a lump of shit on one's shoe, if it has no better distraction at the moment. Reclamation is so tricky. Even if words are taken back and redefined, they can still sting and cut coming from the wrong mouths. And even if the image of what woman supposedly should look like turns into empowered costuming with parody, intention, and fuck you interspersed, it can still be consumed by unwanted eyes in an unintended perspective, or defused as nothing more than unimaginative, opposite reaction to perceived structure/rules. Nothing can be done about eye of the beholder, but I still believe (ever the idealist) in the power of the wearer/presenter and their intent... the eye of the beholder cannot necessarily strip that away, though years of socialization may make one shaky/uncertain in the face of it.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

I would like to think about (and discuss) ways of challenging the eye of the beholder; I don't believe nothing can be done, but I do think that this is a case where personal choices will never add up to a political solution.

I am also ambivalent about intent. (As a writer, I would be :) ) I tend to believe that meaning is created in dialogue between presenter and audience, and I think I chose this quote b/c I want to think about what it means when the audience has a weight of power and expectation that is so heavy it unbalances the equation. I kind of see this as the root of a lot of struggle with femme (and butch) identities and presentations.

Which is not to say that I think we shouldn't try to reclaim, redefine, subvert all of this. Just that it's tricky, and that when we feel tripped up, this may be part of why.

[justin42.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I suppose yes, that's what art (costuming, traditional, otherwise) intends to do (not always, but often)... challenge the eye of the beholder. I guess the most effective way I've seen it is when the eye of the beholder is caught off guard. When something is not as expected. When it appears one way, but upon closer examination, is something unexpected... a deviation from the prescribed norm... more complex than first assumed. Or when something is a magic eye picture within a picture, or optical illusion. Clothing that's painted on a naked body, as a simplistic example. Something that is not as it first appears. I think you're definitely on to something here. I'll look forward to hearing/reading more of your thoughts on it.

[psybelle.livejournal.com]

I tend to believe that meaning is created in dialogue between presenter and audience, and I think I chose this quote b/c I want to think about what it means when the audience has a weight of power and expectation that is so heavy it unbalances the equation.

I'm still stuck on the "obvious truth" of the message being whatever the receiver perceives, no matter what *my* intent is. And I have yet to find a way of dressing/presenting that doesn't land me in categories that I find unsavory to downright untenable...

[badgerbag.livejournal.com]

Right on.

[twostepsfwd.livejournal.com]

The omnivorous male gaze has a way of sexualizing and objectifying a lump of shit on one's shoe

Oh man, that is the truth. I don't know that it's just "the male gaze" however. I think it is the privileged gaze, the white gaze, the gaze of anyone who is not "other" on the "other". But yeah, reclamation is madly tricky and unfortunately I don't see a lot of reclamation going on that is truly subversive or reclamatory... I mostly see imitation, or the idea that by women objectifying eachother (for example) we are reclaiming our bodies and the gaze. This is one of many reasons why I no longer work in the sex industry.

[justin42.livejournal.com]

Good point. It is over simplifying to say it's just the male gaze. It's the privileged gaze. (I'm also aware of the privilege inherent in even being able to have this sort of discussion online.) But imitation is so very human. All our lives we mimic, alter to make our own, relate to one another through perceived similarities and differences, but how far outside the spectrum do our imaginations, fears, hopes and desires allow us/inspire us to go? When I was younger, I put on the punk and goth trappings as a way to differentiate myself as not buying into the fashion/look this way machine... but I was still just part of another agreed upon subset with its own rules. I was just imitating a smaller sector of humanity. I wasn't truly departing and being individual. When you can buy your rebellion at Hot Topic in the local mall, you're not really departing all that far from anything, are you? So do we run around naked or make our own clothes? And do we ostracize ourselves in order to make a point in our appearance or are there other ways to challenge the power/oppression/objectification dynamic?

[goodbadgirl.livejournal.com]

"Nothing can be done about eye of the beholder, but I still believe (ever the idealist) in the power of the wearer/presenter and their intent."

Thank you for writing this Justin.

[mr-heathen.livejournal.com]

well said.

[(Anonymous)]

Thus, Laing argues that "an attempt to parody 'sexiness' may simply miss its mark and be read by the omnivorous male gaze as the 'real thing'."

I wonder where drag queens fit into this theoretical framework?

[abostick59.livejournal.com]

That was me.

[twostepsfwd.livejournal.com]

that is a really, relaly good question

[goodbadgirl.livejournal.com]

Wow Lor. Wow.

I keep trying to form an articulate response to half of your posters but I've had such a crappy day it's all I can do to keep myself from crying when I read these comments.

Fuck.

I suppose it's always good to know what the boys really think of you.

Such. A. Tired. Argument.

Let me know how many times the fact that I'm just to slow to understand that I'm really a pawn of the patriarchy comes up, will ya? Cause I don't think I can read this anymore.

I do appreciate where you're going with this. I'm not calling you out. But fuck.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I was terrified of posting this quote b/c I absolutely did not want people to think that I meant "so ha ha, yr project is meaningless and you're just a tool of the patriarchy." So not where I'm coming from. (Also not where I think Leblanc is coming from.)

But at the same time, I needed to preserve this quote for the future, b/c it *illustrates* the problem so succinctly. For me, it's not a critique, it's a description, you know?

This book, man. It's a hard, important book for me. I'm taking it very slow.

[mr-heathen.livejournal.com]

i'd like to state, for the record, that i'm not attempting to parody sexiness. i'm actually sexy for serious.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

In this case (parody vs serious), I think the context of the book is important.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

In other words, I wouldn't think of you as a punk femme in a zillion years.